INT: Now before we forget again, the name has cropped up. We’re thinking of Barbara Babcock--[GR: Barbara Babcock and Jeffrey Tambor.]--who played the female lead on MR. SUNSHINE with… what’s his name [LAUGHS]? Jeffrey Tambor. And the other character was Leonard Frey. [INT: That’s right. That’s right.] But you came up with that one. [GR: That’s right. Leonard Frey.] Who played Leon. [GR: Wonderful comedian.] He was a terrific… [GR: Wonderful Actor. Terrific Actor.] He called himself our dance captain in rehearsal. He was always the dance captain. He was… that whole company was so wonderful, because they would sit around. Nobody would go back to a dressing room. They would sit and watch each other work. [GR: Yeah, right. Sweet.] It was a great, great company. And of course the stuff you provided with the writing, I still think is one of the finest I’ve ever had, you know, except for the long run on ALL IN THE FAMILY. [GR: Well thank you, yeah.] About as good writing as I could find. [GR: ALL IN THE FAMILY was great.] But you had a way with David [David Lloyd] and Bob Ellison that was wonderful. Who was it who directed ROSEMARY’S BABY? [GR: That was Roman Polanski.] Alright. Remember the day you and I were lucky enough to share an honor at the same time. We both got the Robert Aldrich Award [Robert B. Aldrich Award], and Bob Ellison, one of your Writers, sent me a note. He said, “The Directors Guild [DGA] decides to give you an award and Roman Polanski has to live in exile.” [GR: [LAUGHS] Isn’t that cute? Isn’t that great?] That was his wonderful comment. Ellison.

GR: There was a friend of ours, a girl that Ellison knew and that my wife and I knew, who found out at the age of 30 that she was Jewish. It was one of those situations where the father, because of the prejudice of the time, he was in advertising in New York, and it was discrete for him not to be a Jew. And so he just kind of… I think he changed towns or whatever, and he worked in the city and he never even--and the kids were brought up, and they never disclosed it to the kids. And it wasn’t until she was 30 years old she found out that her father had been Jewish. And Ellison says, “In all these years she’s been buying retail.” [INT: [LAUGHS] Oh gosh, those guys. You remember when David Lloyd went in for an operation?] Oh yes, that’s a great story. [INT: Go ahead, you tell that.] Do you want to hear it now? Do you want to hear the story? [INT: Why don’t you tell it; it’s a good story.] David Lloyd and Jay Sandrich were… maybe it’s a different story. [INT: Maybe it’s a different story.] David Lloyd was very disappointed with Jay Sandrich because when he wrote CHUCKO THE CLOWN [THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW: CHUCKLES BITES THE DUST], which turned out to be a world-beater of a show on--[INT: Great show.]--MARY TYLER MOORE, Jay Sandrich had refused to direct it because he said it was in bad taste. [INT: Oh, I didn’t know that.] Because during the course of the funeral, this woman who had always been--Mary who had always been so indignant about these little jokes they were making about Chucko and so forth, being eaten… you know, he was dressed as a peanut and the elephant ate the peanut… and the elephant says, “You know, you start with one you can’t stop,” one of those things. She was so indignant until she got to funeral, and she cracked and broke up, and Jay thought it was in bad taste. So David was not fond of Jay Sandrich. The girl who directed the show ended up with an Emmy. At any rate, Jay--David Lloyd went to a doctor and he was going through this physical. And the doctor says, “Oh, by the way, a friend of yours is going to be up here later this afternoon for an examination, Jay Sandrich.” And David says, “Oh, that’s interesting.” They got to the point for the rectal massage, you know, for the prostate massage and so forth, and David says, “When you get to this part of the examination with Jay Sandrich, give him my regards.” [INT: [LAUGHS] The story I--that’s very funny. I hadn’t heard that. But the story I had in mind was when he went in for, I think it was a prostate operation as a matter a fact or some operation, and the nurse checking his bracelet, the hospital tag, said, “Is your name David Lloyd?” And he said, “Yes.” She said, “Is that spelled with two ‘L’s?” He said, “Yes, but I'm here to have one of them removed.” [LAUGHS]] [LAUGHS] [INT: Had you heard that?] That’s great. [INT: Great humor. These guys were all capable of doing that last crack, you know, before the trap is sprung. Just wonderful people.] Bob Ellison's girlfriend, I guess his wife, I was up at their house and she has this little dog and so forth; a poodle I guess. She's kissing the dog, and the dog is kissing her, and Ellison says, “Don't, don’t do that,” he says, “I'm going to kiss the dog later.” [LAUGHS] [INT: [LAUGHS] I love that! That’s a great comment.] “Don’t do that. I may want to kiss the dog later.” Beautiful guys. [INT: Oh Bob.] What else do you got on the list there? Any other jokes that… [INT: I’m just thinking about those wonderful Writers.] As long as we’re here.

INT: There’s a question here about DGA committees. You want to talk about that before you became president or council?

GR: Well yeah. I was on the Awards Committee. And there was, with the Guild… I guess it’s with all organizations; there are certain kind of antique procedures that should be kind of reexamined and thrown out. And with the awards, that was one committee in which, that was kind of, there was a number of those. One of them was that fact that we only gave awards to documentaries that had been shown on television. Now you say where does that come from? Somebody thought that that’s the only place documentaries were ever exhibited, ‘cause they didn’t realize that--[INT: Really?] I guess so. I didn’t know this. And so we had to extend it that. Later on, we extended the documentary field, because the documentary Directors, usually some guy with a friend, maybe, but he’s up on some mountain top, you know, with a camera and a sound, whatever, you know, trying to photograph a leopard. They have no dough, they don’t have a crew, they’re whatever. So we extended the awards to non-Guild documentary filmmakers, which is very wise because it brings them into acquaintance with the Guild. And the guy who shot HOOP DREAMS, that was a… wonderful film. That was, I think, non-Guild that won award for it. At any rate, on the Awards Committee we did that. We moved from the Hilton [The Beverly Hills Hilton] over to the Plaza [Hyatt Regency Century Plaza], which is a much bigger foyer before you go into the room. It was a much bigger, better for us. But the awards was kind of riddled with those kinds of antique procedures that we reexamined. I don’t know what else… maybe some other stuff.

INT: Well, you were on the Negotiating Committee too.

GR: I was on Negotiating Committee a couple of times. What other committees? The awards, negotiating… [INT: Well certainly Creative--] Publications. When I went on the Publications Committee, and when I became president, it was a eight-page newsletter. It was a newsletter. Well, I hired Tomm Carroll, who turned out to be very good. [INT: I remember.] We got--after a lot of struggle, we got advertising, and the whole thing has kind of blown-up since then. And the issues have been just great. [INT: It’s a great magazine.] It’s an outstanding magazine. [INT: Good for you.] Awards, publications… [INT: Creative Rights, of course were in that one also, right?] Creative Rights, I worked there. The big contributor there really was Elliot [Elliot Silverstein]. [INT: Yeah. He did a wonderful job.]

INT: There’s another question here about, describe any Guild [DGA] related events, celebrations, tributes, honors, memorials, meetings that have been meaningful to you.

GR: There was a dear friend, which is Boris Segal. [INT: Oh, I remember Boris very well.] The poor guy. He was--[INT: In a helicopter accident.] Yeah, helicopter accident. He was kind of in a very despondent mood and he accidently walked into a blade and killed himself and so forth. But I recall that tribute to our dear friend. I thought that was… But there were some that were very, very well done. I think the George Schaefer’s tribute was impressive. And they showed this film or tape--whatever--that he had shot. Very beautiful stuff. Everybody was just kind of… you know, reacquainted with his work and very impressed. I thought that evening went very well. But we’ve had some very good times with some very good events with our… Special Projects evenings. And of course I think an outstanding thing that happened… it happened during my administration, but I take no credit for it ‘cause I think it’s Selise Eiseman [Selise E. Eiseman] and Jeremy Kagan really came up with, and that was that panel of the nominated Directors is a very important event for us. Marvelous event. [INT: Jeremy is a great--] He’s a marvelous moderator. And the place is just filled. And this last event, this last time was marvelous. They were so articulate, all five of them. [INT: They were great.] Only one American, but I mean that speaks well for us too. But that was quite... Five very well spoken--[INT: And one came to us from New Zealand by TV as I recall. And that was wonderful.] That’s right. A guy from New Zealand, I think an Aussie, an American and two Brits I believe. [INT: You’ve been on some great innovative events for the Directors Guild, which is--] Well that thing we can thank Selise and Jeremy. [INT: Well, we have pretty good people right now, I think, that are--] Very good, very good.

INT: Colorization is an interesting question. Do you want to talk about that?

GR: Well, colorization… I went through the overhead when I saw the film ASPHALT JUNGLE colorized. [INT: I can’t believe it.] And it was colorized in a kind of pinkish, whatever. I mean talk about the insensitivity. [INT: Yeah, if anything cried for black and white that was it.] That’s right. To leave it the way it was. But of course that’s a big battle with us, this business of they get the film, and they feel that they can do anything with it. And I must say that I think that we have made inroads there, and we’re fighting for that. I guess--[INT: There’s less colorization now, I think.] Much less, yeah, I don’t see it. I don’t see it. [INT: Yeah, I’ve been reviewing some old films. I just told you I was looking at MURDER, MY SWEET with Dick Powell, and black and white--the film noir has to remain noir.] That’s right. It has to remain noir. But that was a very good film. [INT: Excellent.] Excellent film. [INT: Yeah, very well done. Eddie Dmytryk [Edward Dmytryk].] What was the… But Hathaway shot it [KISS OF DEATH]. That was an excellent black and white--his first film. [INT: Can’t help you with that one; sorry.] It was as good as MURDER, MY SWEET or better. At any rate--[INT: But Hathaway was a brilliant Director.] Brilliant Director and a real screamer. [INT: Oh boy! I served on a board of directors; Hathaway was on that same board back in the Screen Directors [Screen Directors Guild] days.] There’s a story about Hathaway--there’s a great one about the extras and so forth, who when he came on the set, and he was screaming like hell, and she said, “Who do I have to lay to get off this picture?” [LAUGHS] You haven’t heard that? [INT: I think I heard that.] But Hathaway was up in Wyoming, someplace with a bunch of cowboys, and he was going to start this movie. And these cow--the local guys and so forth, and they were going to have to do a lot of work with him. Now Hathaway says, “Now look, I get very nervous; I’m very excitable. I'm a very committed Director.” And he said, “I may turn around,” and he says, “and in a fit, because I’m in kind of a fury, I mat cuss you out real good, but I don't mean anything by it.” There’s a pause, and a cowboy said, “Mr. Hathaway, I understand that.” He said, “You cuss me out,” he says, “I may knock you right on your ass, but I don't mean anything by it.” [LAUGHS] [INT: [LAUGHS] What a lovely story.] Beautiful that that cowboy really laid him out with it. [INT: The Cinematographer [Director of Photography] I did a lot of work with, Lucien Ballard, did about five films with me, and he was wonderful, but he also worked for Hathaway a lot. And he told me a story about Hathaway and he were in Mexico doing a western and the gaffer was gesturing to the local crew without having any language. He would say, “Por favor,” to get their attention, and then he would waive his arm to move a light this way or that way. And Hathaway listened to this for a while, and finally screamed, “Cut out that ‘por favor’ shit and move the goddamn lamp!” [LAUGHS] He couldn’t stand the time it was taking.] No more ‘por favor’, right. When I ran into him I was with Clarence Brown having lunch in Palm Springs. Hathaway came over, put his arms Clarence and so forth, he was such kind of a warm guy if you got him away from the stage. [INT: By the way, all of these guys were the most wonderful, well-behaved, sweet people, and they all had legendary tempers on the stage.] That’s right. Get them on a stage. [INT: I remember Willy Wyler [William A. Wyler] saying one day, very mild man, but he said, “You must avoid all temptation to be a good fellow,” speaking about being a Director.] Quite right. Quite right. Quite right. You must get your way. [INT: You’ve got to be captain of the ship.] You must get your way. [INT: Be captain.] You must get your way. You must get it. One time Willy Wyler had a big set up and so forth, a big elaborate set up; it was with Bette Davis and so forth. And he said to her, “We’re working.” And she said, “This bothers me. I’m over here and I’m over there.” And he says, “Well, I can fix that.” She says, “How?” He says, “We’ll just move--“ She says, “Oh, but you’ve got all that lit up.” He says, “That works for us. We don’t work for it. Move it!” You know? The fact that they had worked for an hour or whatever, laying in all that stuff, he says, “No, we’ll move it,” because this is where it’s at. [INT: That’s great. He was a wonderful Director. You know what his direction always was? Do it again.] That’s right. [INT: He didn’t do much about discussing, but he knew exactly when it happened.] That’s right. He didn’t know how to articulate, but when it happened, he’d say, “That’s what I want.” Of course he drove people a little bit crazy doing it, but he was a very fine Director. [INT: Oh, he was one of the best. Genius.] The guy I love is Billy Wilder. [INT: Oh Wilder was just wonderful.] He’s great. [INT: I loved his work.] I took my son--my son is, you know, he’s an Actor, and a Writer, and a Director and so forth, and he writes and directs scenes. He’s in this Katselas [Milton Katselas] thing too. [INT: Oh, is that right?] He goes to UCLA, but at night he’s in one of those workshops two nights a week. So he’s writing scenes that he directs in the class, which is great. Now the other kids do that, but he’s writing scenes and so forth. He’s in love--when he was younger, he didn't want to see black and white films, because that’s for old people, you know, it was all color. But now, he says, we go to The New Beverly and we see these films. We saw THE APARTMENT; we saw SOME LIKE IT HOT and so on. Beautiful films. And he says, “Why do people bother to see these color movies when they’ve got this black and white stuff?”

INT: Have you ever had the Guild [DGA] fight a battle or file an arbitration on your behalf?

GR: Yes, I shot a pilot in Rye, New York. It was so good, and the third day of filming CBS called and said, “You’re on the air.” That’s pretty good. You’re shooting a pilot, and they put you on the air after three days dailies. [INT: What was the show?] I think called HOMECOMING, something like that. It didn't work. I mean it was not… HOMECOMING was a misnomer and so forth. But we had some wonderful Actors, stuff we picked up from New York, and the pilot was pretty good. And they said, “Oh my god, this is going to be terrific,” and they bought it. At any rate, I come back and I look at the thing on the air, and in the main title, we’re introducing different characters. In the main title there is a hunk that I didn't shoot. [INT: Oh no!] There’s a hunk, and when I say a hunk, it only ran about 15 seconds, but it was a piece I didn't shoot. So I called the Guild, we had a little arbitration, and we got some compensation. [INT: Yeah, but did they take it out?] They didn’t take it out, no. They left it in. They paid me. [INT: Who directed it?] I don’t know the guy. [INT: Probably some suit.] No, it was a Director. [INT: It was?] Yeah, I think he felt badly about it too. I mean he did it because perhaps he didn't know any better. You know, you call the guy up and he says, “We’ve got this piece we want you to pick up.” He was probably in New York when they shot it back there. [INT: They shouldn’t do that, of course. You know, you’ve got to get permission.] Of course.

INT: Do you ever use the pseudonym ‘Alan Smithee’?

GR: No. [INT: I came up with that name, you know.] Oh, did you invent that name? [INT: Yeah, because somebody wanted a pseudonym, and we weren’t granting it in those days. I think this is still in the Screen Directors [Screen Directors Guild], and somebody said, “Well, why don’t we make an Alan—Joe Smith or something?” And I said, “No, there’s got to be a Smith somewhere.” And somebody said, “How about Smythe?” S-M-Y-T-H. And I said, “Well, I know there’s one Director named Jack Smight. S-M-I-G-H-T.] That’s right. Smithee is strange enough. [INT: Somebody said, “Throw an ‘E’ on it, you know, make it Smithe.” And I said, “Still.” And then I said, “Wait a minute. If you want to start with ‘E’s’, put two ‘E’s’ on it and make it Smith with double ‘E’. So it became Alan Smithee. And we used that with some success until Joe Eszterhas came along and did an Alan Smithee film, which Arthur Hiller directed, and asked for the pseudonym.] You know, there’s a very interesting article that Eszterhas wrote that was in The New York Times about tobacco. [INT: I read it.] So from a guy who appears to be the most insensitive guy in the world that was, of course, it’s a very serious thing that he’s talking about.

INT: What would you advise a young Director, asking whether to join the Directors Guild [DGA] and why?

GR: The Directors I think are a community of artists, and I think that that, that joining that group can be very important. And of course we have to fulfill that promise, that indeed we maintain our Special Projects and so forth, so there's that educational process, that opportunity for Directors to exchange ideas, but also to protect the Directors in terms of their Creative Rights. But what we offer to Directors is of course the protection of Creative Rights. The fact that--and also, as well as protecting the credits, and the minimum wage, and the health benefits, and the pension, which they don’t appreciate, which one day they will appreciate enormously. The benefit of that, and even foreign levies, foreign residuals, what they're collecting and so forth. So there’s not only the financial reward, but there is that creative element, that creative benefit. And that is something that the Guild must be very careful to continually fulfill, which I think we are doing. I think we are doing that, and that that is something… There is a… I have met young men that say, “Well, I can work outside the Guild; I guess I can get jobs, and I want to say outside because it's safer; I can work all these kind of non-Guild stuff. But we promise them is the benefit of this fraternity of filmmakers and we must diligently fulfill all those things that we promise, so that indeed they’re protected, and they’re nourished. [INT: Well, thanks to you, a lot of that has come about, and we are getting a lot of these young people in that are joining for those very reasons. It’s very gratifying to see this.] The Low Budget Agreement is very helpful. [INT: But you had the wisdom to see that during your administrations, the two terms…] One other thing that I did I think is I started visiting these festivals. [INT: Oh tell me about that.] Well, we started--we went to Sundance, we went to Toronto one time, which in that particular case was not a successful visit, because is a big spread out festival, and the actual filmmaker will come in for two days and go, so you never somehow get the convention of filmmakers there. They’re spread out over the range of the days of the festival. But we have gone east to New York; there’s a festival out there in Long Island and so forth. And so I don’t know how they’re keeping it up today, but we did start that. And our presence at Sundance, we used to have these panels at Sundance and so forth. So we had… I think that’s very important to us, because to get closer to these young Directors, these young Directors who are--with whom we can work, and who will find an alliance and a support with the Directors Guild. [INT: You know, some of these fellows are now on our council, like Soderbergh [Steven Soderbergh], you know, and some of these younger, young guys who come up are now working--Todd Holland in television, one of the better Directors in… It’s wonderful to see them showing up for these council meetings. And even older guys like Garry Marshall, you know, has been elected to the… and he shows up. And he’s just a terrific asset to our board and councils.] That’s right. It’s a very exciting council right now. [INT: Oh, I think it’s terrific. I mean it really is…] And it's orchestrated, and there’s a lot of young blood in it; there’s women in it and so forth. I believe we’ll have to emphasize the minorities and so forth. We have to be careful and bring them into the--give them more opportunities in the Guild.

INT: Do you think the studios will ever see the wisdom of opening it up to minorities? I mean they seem to be dragging their feet against this.

GR: Oh sure. [INT: Why?] I think basically, without them recognizing it, is there is prejudice. There’s a sense of, like they have the same resistance to women, women Directors. Not women Writers. Women Writers have had a place in this industry for 60, 80 years. [INT: Women Editors--] Women Editors: Margaret Booth. Margaret Booth sat next to Thalberg [Irving Thalberg] and went over every film and so forth. She was the editorial authority at MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer]; a very, very important job in the ‘20s [1920s] and ‘30s [1930s], in those very early days. And there’s very few women in this town today who had the kind of creative input, close to the center of power, that Margaret Booth had. [INT: It’s true. And Ida Lupino, one of the first Directors who was successful, coming from acting roles.] But we have women in very powerful position in the industry today. Not as many Directors as we would like, but there are women--[INT: Heads of studios.] Heads of studios. But the Director thing will develop. We have some very talent--starting with our own president [Martha Coolidge], some very talented women. [INT: Lee Shallat is coming along; Lee Shallat-Chemel.] That’s right. I saw a very interesting film called THIRTEEN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE SAME THING [THIRTEEN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT ONE THING], written by a woman, directed by a woman, produced by a woman and a man. And it’s so gratifying to sit in a film where you’re not worried if the car is going to explode, you know, is the sniper going to get them before they reach the bridge. You know, without that kind of false melodramatic tension. It's about thirteen different events, a lot of the people are the same, but you see some young guys in a bar, and they have a problem and so forth. Then you go up to another couple, and you say, what is the connection between these two? And you begin to see the thread. You begin to see the thread. But you have to really participate, and you really have to think, and it’s very well done, very interesting--[INT: Is this like RASHOMON in some way?] No, no, no, no. It’s not different versions from different points of view. It is what are these different events have in common or what is missing from one that is true in another. What is the counterpoint, and so forth. At any rate, it’s a kind of feast, and it has also a very kind of uplifting and encouraging and kind of optimistic slant to it. So, you know, the sensibility, the sensitivity, the intelligence, the intelligence--Katselas [Milton Katselas] is always saying, “Women are more intelligent than men,” and there’s a lot of argument that says they certainly are. But you will see, certainly in the writing and eventually, of course--and here was a case of a woman Director doing a lovely job. [INT: I’m so glad to hear this.] Oh yes. [INT: Well, we need more of them.] Right.

INT: Is there anything that you’d like to add? We’ve had a long conversation; it’s been very fruitful.

GR: I tell you what I’d like to do is maybe tomorrow, look it over and see if we should come back. [INT: Okay.] If there’s left. [INT: I think that’s a very good idea.] Okay. [INT: Okay.]